Comment from Richard
Time: July 13, 2007, 4:19 am

My partnerhas depression and is being treated with medication. Is there a Buddhist view on anti-depressant medication?

I am confused about what to think about the use of medication? Where does that fit in with a buddhist life?

Any opinions would be helpful

Comment from Bodhipaksa
Time: July 13, 2007, 1:37 pm

Hi Richard,

There’s rarely “a” Buddhist view on anything, but especially with modern issues like psychoactive pharmaceuticals all one can do is look at some of the fundamental ethical guidelines of Buddhism and try, as intelligently as possible, to figure something out.

I presume what you have in mind is the fifth Buddhist precept of abstention from intoxicants. Given that pharmaceutical drugs can affect the mind, there can be a natural fear that taking them may involve some kind of ethical breach. However a deeper understanding of Buddhist ethics must always return to looking at motivation. The fifth precept is intended to encourage us not to take an aware mind and hinder its functioning by taking alcohol or drugs.

Your partner’s situation is very different. He or she is starting with a mind that’s chemically impaired to the point where, presumably, normal mindful awareness is difficult or impossible to sustain, and the intention is to return to something approaching so-called normality by taking anti-depressants.

My own view is that this is fine. Sometimes there are simply chemical imbalances in the brain that arise from misfiring genes, lack of sunlight, hypothyroidism, etc. And in these cases (and others) anti-depressants may be necessary.

Buddhism has long recognized that there are different levels of conditionality that may affect the mind. Depression is not just a matter of “thinking the wrong kind of thoughts” (although that can play a part) but may be chemically or organically induced.

Now there are meditative ways, like Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy for Depression, which can help as well, by helping us to identify and let go of unhelpful ways of thinking, although thse techniques are used generally to prevent relapse after a period of depression is over, and not to “treat” depression.

So once your partner is feeling more stable perhaps he or she could consider this as an extra tool to help remain in a non-depressed state.

Comment from SS
Time: February 11, 2008, 9:08 am

I just stumbled across your site, and am eagerly learning from it. I suffer from depression and am trying to learn how to change my negative thought patterns to cope. I am particularly trying to learn metta bhavana. But I wonder where the line is drawn between metta and not being able to stand up for oneself? Today, my special needs son accidentally pulled another little girl’s hair in kindergarten. She was crying. The teachers dealt with it appropriately, and my son apologized. But the girl’s mother was angry and spoke too roughly to my son. I was there, and could not say anything to her, and she did not acknowledge my presence or my apology. I have been miserable and crying all afternoon, and I have tried metta bhavana directed at myself and at the other mother, but cannot get past the sorrow, shame, and anxiety. Please help?

Comment from Bodhipaksa
Time: February 11, 2008, 2:57 pm

Hello SS,

Thanks for writing. That does sound like a very painful experience and one that could be a trigger for depression.

To deal with the core question you asked, there really isn’t any inherent conflict between metta and standing up for oneself. Having metta for others doesn’t mean that we allow ourselves to be a doormat for them, and in fact ideally our concern for their wellbeing in an extension of our lovingkindness for ourselves.

(OK, I think you might want to pause here and watch for any signs of beating yourself up as you continue reading. When we’re experiencing depression we often make unfair comparisons between ourselves and some idea of how we should be).

Certainly the traditional view is that we can’t actually have metta for others until we’ve developed metta for ourselves. I’m not entirely sure that’s true, actually, but it’s what the tradition says. Let’s just assume that it is true, however. What this would mean then is that when we allow others to trample over us we’re actually confusing something else with metta, or at least there’s something else mixed in with our metta.

I think often that the extra element (or the element that we confuse with metta) is a desire to be liked by the other person. We may have been brought up to believe that people will like us if we don’t impose ourselves on them. Or we may have a mistaken view that the universe is a fair place and that if we’re nice to others then they’ll be nice back to us. So we can have these kinds of things going on and we think we’re being mettaful but actually we’re acting out of fear or from deluded views.

If we’re really being mettaful (and that’s quite a hard thing to do, often) we take ourselves into account as well as the other person. So someone may speak to your son in a way that you consider harsh, and when you see that happening you feel pain because you know that your son is suffering. But that doesn’t mean that you can’t say anything to the other mother.

You said that you apologized, and I’m curious to know what you meant by that. When we say “sorry” we can mean two different things, and they often get confused. On the one hand saying “sorry” can mean admitting that you did something wrong. So your son apologized and presumably that meant that he was admitting that he should have been more careful. The other way we can use the word sorry is to say “i feel sorrow” and that’s the only healthy way in which you could have said you were sorry. You didn’t pull the girl’s hair, and so you can’t say that you did something wrong! But you can feel sorrow that the girl was hurt by your son’s actions.

So I’d ask you to recall, without judgment, what you meant when you said you were sorry. Were you taking responsibility for something you weren’t responsible for, or were you just expressing that the situation was painful? If it was the latter, then it would be useful to bear in mind these two ways of meaning “sorry” and to resolve to cultivate an awareness of when you inappropriately want to apologize.

The other thing that strikes me is the other woman not acknowledging your presence or your communication with her. There could have been all kinds of things going on here, from her being confused by the situation to her wanting to hurt you to her having acknowledged you ibut not realizing she was doing so. But the important thing is that you felt something (hurt? confusion? frustration? anger?) and that you needed something (acknowledgment). Both of those things are healthy parts of being human — it’s what you do next that’s crucial. And I don’t know what you did. Perhaps you froze, waiting for the other woman to say something? Many be you tried to be nice to her?

What you could do in that kind of situation, and what would be very helpful to you, is to express both your feeling and your need. So you could say something like “When I said I was sorry my son pulled your daughter’s hair, I didn’t
hear you say anything. I feel hurt because my need for recognition wasn’t met.”

This is a “clean” expression of both your feeling and your need because there’s no blame involved and you’re not judging the other person. (You might want to look into Non-Violent Communication, or NVC, to find out more about communicating mettafully — there’s lots of info on the web although a course would no doubt be most helpful).

Anyway, by expressing how you feel you’re acting mettafully towards yourself. You’re also acting with self-metta because you’re expressing what need isn’t being met. And you’re treating the other person with metta as well because you’re inviting them to connect with you, heart to heart, with their humanity able to resonate with yours, and because you’re not placing any judgments on them (“I don’t like that you ignored me”).

For now, though, you’re experiencing sorrow, shame, and anxiety, and that’s primarily what you need to deal with. I’d suggest that you treat any of those painful emotions like you would (ideally) treat your son if he were hurt — with love. It’s easy for us to slip into thinking that our hurt is an enemy (after all we’d often rather it was absent!). So instead of treating painful emotions as enemies, treat them as beloved children. All they need is your love and compassion, and to be accepted. And they will pass, given those things and given time.

Comment from SS
Time: February 11, 2008, 10:55 pm

Thank you so much for your reply. To answer your question, what I meant by saying ‘I am sorry’ to the other mother, was a desire to acknowledge that something bad had happened to her child, which my son was responsible for (though accidentally). So, when she spoke roughly to my son and ignored me, I felt that my ‘olive branch’ had been rudely refused; that we were ‘unforgiven’; and have somehow been judged as ‘bad people’ unworthy of redemption from a mistake.
I am still in the grip of crying fits. It is now the next morning (we are in a different country, in case you are wondering about the time discrepancy) and if I see the other mom I will try what you suggested.
I tried very hard last night to practice ‘breathing mindfulness’ and some more ‘metta’, but kept re-living the bad experience and all its associated negativity. So I haven’t moved forward out of it as yet.

Comment from SS
Time: February 12, 2008, 1:46 am

Update:

I had typed an answer to your questions earlier, but do see that posted, so please excuse me if this is a duplicate.

Overall, I wanted to thank you for your thoughtful and detailed answer.

1. To answer your question, yesterday I apologized to the other mother to say I was sorry her daughter had been hurt, and also because my son had hurt her, though accidentally, I should apologize. Thus, I was very hurt in turn when my attempt at an olive branch was rejected.

2. I have just returned from dropping my children off at school (we are in another country in case you are wondering about the time discrepancy), and the sequel to the story is even worse. I heard from the teacher that the teaching staff had approached the other mother yesterday and gently let her know that how she had handled the situation (yelling at my son instead of talking with me) was inappropriate. So when I saw her this morning, I went up to her and tried to validate her feelings while at the same time expressing mine.

So, very gently I said that in her place I too would have been very angry, but how she handled it with my son was not the best way to move forward from an accident. She burst into a tirade railing at me (among other things):
a) it was not an accident in her view (though the teachers did confirm it was)
b) she will do anything and everything to protect her children
c) she has raised three children with total non violence and they never have such accidents or incidents
d) something is “wrong with my son”

I felt like someone has thrown acid in my face. I went straight back to the class teacher; who clarified:
a) it was an accident
b) this mother is known to be over protective of her children.

The other assistant teachers etc. all commiserated with me quietly about how awful the whole episode was, and in their view the other mother was not justified in her words and actions.

But if I was upset yesterday, I am feeling a thousand times worse today. My thoughts and feelings are thrashing around like wounded animals, and any attempt on my part at some form of right thinking is futile.

My husband has tried to tell me:
“this other woman sounds like a piece of work; do not give her this power over yourself”.

But you cannot imagine the agony I am in at this time.

What steps can I take?

Thanks in advance

Comment from Bodhipaksa
Time: February 12, 2008, 10:16 am

Hello again, SS.

Our comments are moderated, which means that they get help up for approval before they appear on the website. That’s not very clear, unfortunately, and I’m sorry for the confusion! Anyway, that means we have some duplication, but that’s no matter since you’ve ended up supplying lots of interesting detail.

What an unpleasant situation in which to find yourself! It does sounds like the other mother’s actions are very unhelpful, and I’m glad that you have the staff on your side.

You asked what to do. In a similar situation I would:

First, as I suggested yesterday, cultivate compassion for my own pain.

Second, I’d visualize myself protected by a sphere of light that provides comfort and love but which prevents any harmful feelings from entering.

Then third, I’d cultivate empathy and compassion for the other mother. She acted inappropriately, but at the same time it’s worth bearing in mind that her motivation was to protect her child. That desire is a noble one, even if the way she tried to go about it was very misguided. I think we can empathize with her need for security, even while disagreeing with her actions.

She’s also very isolated because you have the staff on your side. In her mind she has to use her anger to compensate for the fact that she’s alone in thinking that your son it at fault. Also, she’s suffering. She’s suffering because she can’t protect her child from harm and she’s afraid. And she’s suffering because of her isolation and because her back’s against the wall. These are things I think that as parents we can all empathize with.

So I’d suggest doing things in that order — cultivate compassion towards your own sense of hurt, protect yourself by visualizing a psychic “force field” around you, and then cultivate empathy for the other woman. Empathy and compassion can do a lot to free ourselves from being caught up in our own pain.

Incidentally, we also have a contact form where you can ask questions. I’m happy to discuss this in public as long as you are, but I just wanted to let you know that there is an alternative.

Comment from Cahalil
Time: March 23, 2008, 9:34 pm

This a really interesting article. As a Muslim who occasionally experiences bouts of depression, I’ve found the meditative invocation of the Supreme Divine Name to do wonders. That, and exercise, seems to be the best combination.

There was a study done in Germany a few years which explored the pscyhological healing power of repeating the name of God — Allah. It wouldn’t surprise me if the medical profession more seriously considers the healing power of century old religious meditative practices of the world’s great religions. But it might take some time for the profession to open itself up to non-conventional ways of psychological healing. The only danger is that some of these meditative practices can do more harm than good if they aren’t undertaken under the supervision of an experienced guide.

Comment from Karam Minjur
Time: May 16, 2008, 3:43 am

My lama says that you should allow your subjective pain to awaken compassion for others that also suffer from whatever condition you are suffering with. Then take the medicine!

I no longer need to take antidepressants and I put this down to many years of practice. But Buddhist meditation is not therapy: it’s goal is enlightenment. This is why the Dharma is taught.

That said, calming meditation really helps to clear the mind of that nagging negative voice that informs depression and damages your chances of happiness in this life. I did this by learning to recognise it and then prevent it gaining energy and starting a loop in my mind. My personal experience is that it is like having a constant noise in your mind that spoils everything and makes it very hard to think and feel anything but despair that it will never end. Eventually you move on past it. Or I did, anyway. I also found the first Noble Truth, impermanence, a great help, because it meant that the was a light at the end of the tunnel and my pain would end.

A friend said (probably a quote somewhere), “if you are going through hell keep going until you get to the end”. Good advice I think.

Hope this helps Dharma friends.

Comment from Bodhipaksa
Time: May 16, 2008, 11:56 am

Hi Karam,

I agree of course that ultimately Buddhist meditation is aimed at enlightenment. Enlightenment however is something that not all people have an interest in, and for them meditation may be something that they take up as a therapy to deal with pain so that they can go about their lives in a relatively normal way. That’s a limited perspective, but understandable.

I like the point that your lama makes. Turning our attention outwards by being more aware of the sufferings of others is a potent way for us to reduce our own suffering. When we become obsessed with our own pain it intensifies.

Anyway, I’m glad you’re on the path until the end and not just exploring the first stretch!

Take care,
Bodhipaksa

Comment from Donald Fleck
Time: June 3, 2008, 7:46 pm

I have used meditation for depression, as it can help to focus onto the pain rather than try to avoid it. Recently I have begun teaching Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy for Depression (MBCT), and found that students did pretty well. This is not strictly Buddhist, so I’m not sure if it fits here, but more and more meditators are teaching it through their sanghas or meditation centers, particularly in England. Details are on my web site, DonaldFleck.com, under the Mindfulness tab. I’m interested in questions and comments, of course.

Sincerely, Donald Fleck DCSW

Comment from Karma Minjur
Time: June 4, 2008, 3:07 am

Donald – I don’t need to focus on the pain – it’s always there, constantly. I just don’t give it any energy any more. I recommend the Tibetan practice of lo johng (not sure of spelling) – “sending and taking”, which the Dalai Lama describes in one of the “Essential Teachings” series – need to track the proper reference.

I also wouldn’t embark on this without some instruction from a qualified teacher.

Another thing that came to mind recently – and sending and taking starts with this – is to forgive and love yourself first, before you try to give things to others. If you hate yourself the taint of the hatred will devalue whatever you give to others, and make it hurt more too!

Strongly recommend “The Art of Happiness” too, wonderful gentle book.

Comment from ML
Time: July 1, 2008, 3:30 pm

I found this page while searching for ‘depression and meditation’ in Google. I’ve been dealing with depression of varying severity much of my adult life and have recently tried to start meditating daily in addition to some other approaches, including an antidepressant supplement and therapy. And what a coincidence for me to find that this site is run by Bodhipaksa — the very same gentle guider of the meditations whose CD I’ve been using.

I can say that meditation sometimes helps me with the feelings of depression. Other times, when depressed, it’s difficult for me to meditate at all. On the whole, I would recommend it. It can calm one’s mind from those swirling, sometimes harmful, thoughts, if only to provide some short-lived relief.

Thank you, Bodhipaksa, for the recordings and for this site. I’m grateful for your compassion and willingness to reach out to those who are suffering.

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Time: July 13, 2008, 11:59 pm

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Comment from Charles Pitt
Time: August 25, 2008, 5:39 am

I was researching meditation and depression to see if there was any research to suggest that regular meditation actually had the effect of delaying a persons recover from a period of ‘major depression’ I have been a meditator of some years
and have recently been suspicious about a causal link between the two. Meditation sends me into a very deep and somewhat hypnotic state
which makes engagement in the world a double experience – it calms but leaves me flat and disengaged. This may be a necessary
period of dissengagement so that the body can recover and repair but I wonder if I am assisting my long term recovery
from depression or prolonging it. I would appreciate anyones honest comments or experiences.

Comment from Bodhipaksa
Time: August 25, 2008, 5:56 am

Hi Charles,

All the evidence I’ve seen points in the direction of meditation preventing relapse, but I guess what happens in an individual’s experience depends on what they are actually doing in meditation.

The results you’re describing suggest to me that you need to change whatever it is you do when you’re meditating. Perhaps at present you place too much emphasis on relaxation and not enough on alertness. Or perhaps you’re not paying attention to your emotions or cultivating positive emotion. But the end result of meditation shouldn’t be that you feel flat and disengaged — quite the opposite in fact.

I’d be happy to deal with any follow-up questions you may have.

Comment from Karma Minjur
Time: August 25, 2008, 8:24 am

I agree wholeheartedly with Bodhipaksa’s comment. You can also find yourself sinking or scattering within your meditation and there are specific remedies for this, it sounds like Charles is experiencing sinking.

Despite this, I wouldn’t recommend just digging around on the net for the remedies and trying them. I think you need some instruction from a teacher who can get to know you and understand your situation. If you know the remedies and use them without guidance you can end up with a meditation practice that is bouncing between states and not the steady, deep calm of calm abiding. You will know when you find it. I also wonder if you are withdrawing from your medication, if any? I remember that this did some odd things to my perceptions while I did it. Please withdraw under medical supervision if you are, I did and it was necessary.

Earlier I posted about the technique of “sending and taking” and I think this helped me a lot with my depression because it took me out of myself and my petty concerns. But again, you need to discuss it with a qualified teacher who holds the lineage for it. Good teachers are happy to discuss their qualifications and what they are empowered to teach, don’t be afraid to ask, it’s part of the tradition.

Comment from alana
Time: August 31, 2008, 5:37 pm

hi just wondering if u think that meditation could help me to be happy again. i have been suffering from which i think is depression now for nearly a year and has got to the point where my family are feeling it and my marriage is at risk. it all started when i had my last knee operation acl reconstruction which to my horror as not gone as well as should have. i was quite fit and used the gym and went running regular and work in a gym too! but now i cant even barely ride the bike i feel so fat ugly tired and very unhappy and dont know why this is the only thing i could think of the reason being! ive been to the docs which have suggested i have councilling cos i dont want to take anti-depressants but i would like to think some kind of meditation could help could you please advice me thanks as i do love my family but at the same time i think im hurting them cos im not happy and sometimes just feel like running away from everything and everybody!

Comment from Sunada
Time: September 1, 2008, 1:35 pm

Dear Alana,

I’m so sorry to hear about your knee injury and all the effects it’s had on you. It sounds as though a major part of your life really depended on your being fit and active, and I know this must be a huge loss.

You asked whether meditation could help you be happy again. Yes it absolutely can. As a recovering depressive myself, I strongly feel that meditation is among the few things we can do that can create lasting change. However, it’s not like taking a pill where you’ll see instant results. What meditation does is create a mental framework for us gradually to become more self-aware and train us to redirect those habitual thought patterns that get us stuck in unhappy places. It does take time and effort, but I can personally say that it is well worth it.

It sounds as though counseling could be helpful, too, especially since it sounds as though your depression is more the result of your life situation, and not necessarily a brain chemical imbalance. I’m guessing that a combination of counseling and meditation might work well for you, and help you through this difficult period.

I wish you the best, and that you find your way back to happiness. It really is possible! I am living proof.

Best wishes,
Sunada
http://www.mindfulpurpose.com

Comment from Jennifer
Time: October 6, 2008, 8:47 am

I have suffered from depression most of my life and in the mid-90s I finally tried medications that were a big help. I am still taking meds, but find that 9 years into my marriage, I am severely depressed and hopeless. Everything seems to have gone downhill since I had twins 5 years ago (I also have a single child who is 7). My husband and I dated for 5 years and saw a therapist together even before we married, but the same issues of his emotional distance and his tendency to lash out when I express my feelings (since he always takes them a attacks) continue to plague our relationship. I am feeling like I want out. I have read Ticht Nat Hahn on “Anger” and am currently reading “The Power of Now” — I am wondering how I can stop “ruminating” and if I can use meditation to achieve some kind of forgiveness of myself and my spouse. I have so much anger and sorrow… How do I know I am meditating in a healthy way by being in the now and not doing unhealthy suppression of my true feelings? Sometimes following Tolle’s suggestion to observe my feelings instead of “being” them seems like a fancy way of repressing.

Comment from Bodhipaksa
Time: October 7, 2008, 3:02 pm

Hi Jennifer,

You don’t say why it is that observing your feelings rather than being caught up in them seems like repression.

Comment from Jennifer
Time: October 7, 2008, 8:18 pm

I guess I don’t know where to draw the line when it comes too letting my spouse know what I’m feeling. If there are things that are bothering me and I just “acknowledge” the frustration or anger or whatever in my mind but don’t say anything, then there isn’t a chance of it changing. I don’t find that “observing” my feelings — sort of saying to myself “I am feeling depression” — is mitigating them. Isn’t it healthy to release feelings of sorrow or anger rather than hope they dissipate by observing them? Isn’t it better for the relationship to communicate feelings rather than think to oneself? I suppose I am doubting the ability of meditating to lessen the emotion. Also, there is still the problem of dealing with the action that resulted in the emotional reaction…

Comment from Bodhipaksa
Time: October 9, 2008, 9:34 am

Thanks, that’s helpful, Jennifer. What you’re describing is one of the big misconceptions about the place of mindfulness in spiritual practice — a misconception that’s encouraged by some teaching styles. Sometimes the role of mindfulness is over-emphasized, to the extent that it’s seen as the be-all and end-all of what we do in our lives. There’s a nice story about this, where one monk is visiting another, only to find him sitting meditating under a leak in his hut — the rain is dripping directly on the meditator’s head. When he’s finished meditating the visitor asks him what he was doing, and he says he was just being mindful of the sensations of the water hitting his head and running down his body. “Ah!” says the visitor. “Lots of mindfulness — not so much wisdom.”

So mindfulness isn’t the only spiritual faculty. Wisdom (which includes knowing when to act and when not to) and “virya” (energy — or actually acting) are also faculties that have to be exercised. As you’re correctly intuiting, if you experience frustration with the way someone is acting, then it’s going to create more suffering for you if you don’t express this in some way. Otherwise you’re just sitting under a dripping roof. Wisdom suggests that you fix the leak, and virya impels you to do something. So I’d suggest you do something, which is what your instincts (your natural wisdom) is telling you to do.

Of course it’s important that we communicate as mindfully as we can, with honesty but also with as much kindness and respect towards the other person as we can muster. This becomes more tricky to do when we’ve bottled up our resentments, unfortunately, because there’s a lot of energy waiting to get out! But you’ll just have to work with that as best as possible. Better out than in!

Comment from Shamash
Time: November 7, 2008, 11:20 am

I think mindfulness meditation is wonderful for people who suffer from depression. I teach the 8 week mindfulness course in south west London, and it can be very effective for those suffering from depression as it helps to disengage with the constant rumination in the mind. See http://www.learnmindfulness.co.uk for videos and articles about the benefits of mindfulness meditation and the 8 week MBCT course, which is used now by the NHS in the United Kingdom to treat some patient who suffer repeated from depression.
Best wishes,
Shamash

Comment from Rose
Time: November 17, 2008, 2:51 pm

I was wandering if meditation could help me in dealing with my suffering for being extremely shy. It has been a real problem
for me my whole life. The feelings of being inferior or the comparisons with other people are really painful. excuse me for my english, I am not a native speaker. Thank you for the comments.
Rose

Comment from Shamash
Time: November 17, 2008, 6:01 pm

Hi Rose,

I would say yes, but it’s not the only way. Have you tried counselling, psychotherapy or cognitive behaviour therapy? These can all be helpful. Meditation would be a good compliment to all of these approaches and it would make you feel calmer. If you’ve never tried meditation before, you could try some of the meditations on this website. In the end, it’s best to find a teacher in your area.

Best wishes,
Shamash
learnmindfulness.co.uk

Comment from Bodhipaksa
Time: November 18, 2008, 11:08 am

Hi Rose. I agree with Shamash that meditation could be helpful, and also that it would be worth exploring the other options he mentioned. Cognitive therapy seems to work particularly well with meditation — both involve becoming aware of how we think, help us to become aware that we have choices, and (with some forms of meditation) help us to channel our thoughts in more productive directions.

Both mindfulness meditation and lovingkindness meditation would likley be beneficial. Mindfulness meditation, as I mentioned, helps us to let go of unhelpful patterns of thinking. And lovingkindness meditation not only helps us feel better about ourselves (more appreciative and confident) it also helps us take our attention away from ourselves and onto other people (in a helpful way). We become more interested in other people as people rather than as potential judges who may like or dislike us.

Your English is excellent, by the way: better than many native speakers in fact.

Good luck!

Comment from Matthew Brown
Time: November 18, 2008, 3:42 pm

Bodhipaksa, first, I want to thank you for your guided meditation CD, which has been so helpful to me as I battle my own depressions. I was on Paxil for 11 years, and developed alcohol dependency during the last 5 years. I went for therapy and have managed to quit both the alcohol and the Paxil, but I am separated from my wife and family and unemployed, and so suffering the symptoms of depression again. My sister is a Buddhist (and a professor of eastern religion) and she has been a great help in pointing the way for me to develop a practice.

I am entering therapy again, and with luck I will have a therapist objective enough to refrain from giving advice that will lead me to rash decisions while I am dealing with so many difficult issues (I left my wife thinking I was coming back, given the advice of my therapist, only to find the door not open on my return. I am still hoping to reconcile with her, but that may not happen). The path of Buddhism continues to be a way for me to deal with the vicissitudes of life. Again, thank you.

Comment from Bodhipaksa
Time: November 18, 2008, 8:49 pm

Hi Matthew,

Good luck with working through your current bout. May it pass quickly.

Comment from Matthew Brown
Time: November 18, 2008, 9:01 pm

I have been wondering, after my experience with Paxil, if the effects of the drug over time diminished my capacity for empathy, and therefore my compassion. I am certainly struggling with more sadness now; but wonder if that doesn’t make me keener to understand and appreciate the sadness, grief and loss of others.

Comment from Rose
Time: November 19, 2008, 2:54 pm

… I only wanted to say thanks to you and to Shamash for you answers and support. I am attending to a course in a Brahmna Kumaris centre, is about Raja Yoga, I think is very helpful. Mindfulness meditation and lovingkindness meditation seems good for shyness, I’ve never tried them before.
Thanks for your comment about my English, it is very encouraging for me.
Best wishes.

Comment from Donald Fleck DCSW
Time: November 19, 2008, 3:14 pm

I am a mental health professional. I see you are having an important dialog.

I am working on a definition of what a mindful psychotherapist really is, and put my thoughts up on my blog, Mindfulness and Psythotherapy. Perhaps you or your readers would have a look at what I wrote, and and any comments for my benefit. The blog is at http://www.DonaldFleck.com.

Thank you very much,

Donald Fleck DCSW

Comment from aniol
Time: February 16, 2009, 9:22 am

hi I have been wondering, after my experience with Paxil, if the effects of the drug over time diminished my capacity for empathy, and therefore my compassion. I am certainly struggling with more sadness now; but wonder if that doesn’t make me keener to understand and appreciate the sadness, grief and loss of others.

anil.

Manic Depression News and Discussion Forum

Comment from Matthew Brown
Time: February 22, 2009, 8:53 pm

aniol, I have been wondering the same thing. Right now, I am more depressed than ever, and it is a distraction from my work on lovingkindness. I resonate deeply when i hear of tragedy or another’s sadness, yet my own suffering from sorrow leads me into repetitive thoughts that are no help at all to anyone. I work on metta, but often it seems quite empty, and I don’t know if it is because of my depression.

I don’t miss taking Paxil, because on one level I think I was deluded — for one thing, it was part of the reason I became such a heavy drinker for awhile– but it did keep me from the depths of depression.

Comment from antimatter
Time: March 9, 2009, 9:55 pm

for depressed people like myself i have found a very happy combination: my therapist is present in such a way that her energy embraces me; and mindful attention to how i am feeling and who i am with, helps me to sustain a kind of energy that disables depression. in my darkest period, i latched onto this blues line “baby, you can choose despair, or you can be happy, if you dare.” (thank you, Ian McEwan). i think practicing with a good zen mentor is a bonus–not the only way though–unless you don’t have so many monsters under the bed. avoid phonies. Buddha, true therapists, &c say only you have the answers. the answers change. anything that helps slow down the mind chatter is all to the good. if you are a parent of relentless children, make time for yourself. it is crucial to move from your center. bless the depressed–m*w

Comment from Eric
Time: June 23, 2009, 1:53 am

Hello all.
I believe that I have meditated myself into extinction. One of the comments I read referred to a disengagement from life. It feels as though I have “become” the observer, however, I don’t think this is quite true. Having been trained in Psychology, I’m afraid that I tend to dissociate. I starting meditating after reading “The Power of Now”. It occured to me, intellectually, that if I am unable to be still and to know what is happening within me, then all of the external activities are fruitless. Thus, I decided to stop working in the mental health field and began to meditate quite a bit. I have, it seems, lost my sense of humor, have developed strange sensations throughout the body that it seems have probably always been there but with all of the “movement” and general activity, I didn’t even know what was happening in my body- what I was feeling. I have been depressed since my first long-term relationship broke up and despite brief periods of respite, I cannot seem to find joy. I remember reading Osho’s discussion on facial expressions and his comments about not smiling when the feeling is otherwise as this will mess up the whole mechanism. I have therefore allowed anger to show on my face (quite scary and uncomfortable) and have tried to accept it and let it pass. It is quite hot in my throat, chest and stomach. There is great tension in the head. I have been treated with Reiki, Re-birthing, I Vision-Quested, took an Aryuvedic retreat and have had much therapy and drug trials. My meditation was mindfully based, where i watched the breath. It has become such that the body feels quite tense and I can feel it always- especially from the throat through the head. Quite painful. I know that has dragged on but I’m at my wits end and I feel that if I could find a place to be taught and “retreat”, I may again have something of value to offer. I find myself quite frightened and socially distant though still able to “act the part”, but this feels quite tenuous. I know that a psychiatrist will only medicate me and I fear that my journey would be thwarted.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Especially, specific techniques for dealing with energy blocks in the body. I have tried to dissolve that which Ken Wilber calls “mini-boundaries” by allowing tension to become tighter, but it seems that I cannot locate the muscles causing my incredible tension. I scream periodically, but it never seems enough.

I was physically and emotionally abused as child and I recall being unable to be still even back then. Now, even the ego-enhancing behaviors that I used to engage in and seem to enjoy seem– ridiculous.

Help!

Thanks for listening (reading) and for any advice.

Comment from Bodhipaksa
Time: June 24, 2009, 9:59 am

Hi Eric,

I’m sorry to hear about the difficult experiences you’ve been having. What comes to my mind is that although some people can do only mindfulness meditation, it’s generally preferable to employ complementary approaches — especially lovingkindness meditation.

Mindfulness meditation does lead to non-attachment, but when there’s a lack of appreciation and warmth accompanying our observation of our experience this non-attachment can turn into detachment, which is much less healthy. We can in fact become rather alienated and cut off from our emotions. When mindfulness and lovingkindness are integrated we can observe our experience in an loving, appreciative, inquisitive way.

I’d suggest that you take up lovingkindness meditation as a complement to your mindfulness practice. Although I’d generally suggest balancing the two forms of practice by doing them on alternate days, in your case, since you’re redressing an imbalance, I’d suggest doing much more lovingkindness than mindfulness meditation. Early in my meditation career I was a rather hostile and critical person, and someone told me “You can’t do too much lovingkindness meditation.” That turned out to be true. For a long time I did virtually nothing but metta bhavana, and it had a profound effect on me. I hope you’ll notice the same effect.

All the best with your practice.
Bodhipaksa

Comment from Scottknick
Time: November 8, 2009, 8:45 am

Thanks for this important discussion. I have been on medication for depression and anxiety for eight years, and have been meditating daily for the last two. I have found that meditation has made me more aware of the triggers of my depression, and of the core beliefs that underlie it. It has also given me small glimpses of the great field of unconditioned awareness in which all perceptions and mental formations are held, and this has made me more tranquil and serene even in times of depression and anxiety.

I have never had qualms about depression medications, (I was on Paxil and now take venlafaxine and naltrexone), primarily because I have never found them to be intoxicating or even mood altering in the gross sense. I don’t entertain any feelings that I should somehow be dealing with my mood disorders “by myself,” because I recognize that my self in any given moment is merely an aggregate of a universe of factors, one of which happens to be the levels of seratonin and norepinephrine floating around in my synapses.

What’s more, I think the meds have helped my meditation by making it a little easier to accept and be with negative emotions and memories that arise. They have also made it a little easier to practice metta for myself and others with less anxiety. Overall I have found meditation to be an irreplaceable adjunct to (but not a replacement for) therapy, medication and 12-step work.

Comment from denis
Time: December 2, 2009, 11:09 pm

Namaste All,
Interesting and close to my experiences. Regarding energy blockages in the body especialy when trying to meditate, if origin of blockage is self induced through wrong thinking defilement, and has now manifested pinched nerve in neck and between shoulders, this now causing fatigue and depression.
How then dose this relate with deeper understanding of dukha’s “unsatisfactoryness” and suffering?
Hampered will as cause of suffering.
Also Budhist views “Abandon all hope of fruition”
“Aimlessness”
The problems that acompany egos demand for things to be other than they are!
Eish!
On a last humourous note check out “STOP IT!” Bob Newhart on You tube.
Love n Grattitude Denis
Hogsback South Africa

Comment from Ramesh kumar
Time: December 3, 2009, 11:50 am

Hi Bodhipaksa Sir,My name is ramesh,age 26,my father was expired four years back,from that time my psycological problem started like starting dizzy has been coming for every hour and then i started thinking that i may die and then started thinking that i may go mad..i am suffering with that problems.last year i cannot controlled my thoughts then i went to psycologist.he prescribed me medications,starting i was happy,again i am facing same problems.can this will be solved by meditation.and no one knows that i am in such type of depression.i will meet my friends daily,and i will be happy with my friends and when i am alone i am facing psycological problems.so please give me the solution

Comment from Bodhipaksa
Time: December 4, 2009, 9:53 am

Hi Ramesh,

I’m sorry to hear about the distress you’ve been experiencing. It sounds more like anxiety than depression, but whatever is going on I’m sure meditation can help. Meditating helps us to recognize that our thoughts are just stories we tell ourselves and that we don’t need to believe those stories. It can also help to reduce the amount of thinking, and to calm down our emotions. Since you’re in India (I presume) I’d suggest you look out for one of the 10 day Vipassana retreats led by Mr. Goenka or his disciples. They include a thorough training in observing the mind and standing back from our thinking.

I do hope you find peace.
Bodhipaksa

Comment from Ivone Leme
Time: April 24, 2010, 9:32 pm

Eu não conhecia esse site, e por ocasião de uma dúvida, acabei entrando nele por acaso.
Na semana passada fui diagnosticada com Síndrome do Pânico, estou em tratamento farmacológico. Mas creio que o Universo, a Vida, não permitirão que este quadro piore.
Você teria alguma meditação a qual eu pudesse fazer, prá aceitar as minhas limitações, queimar as barreiras das coisas e pessoas que me fazem sofrer, e principalmente expressar, falar o que sinto. Se piedade, e sem rodeios. Existe essa formula?

Comment from Manjupriya (Stephen Little)
Time: April 26, 2010, 9:00 am

Olá Ivone,
Sou um instrutor do método “Atenção Plena” (Mindfulness, em inglês) aqui em São Paulo, Brasil. Fiquei curioso sobre a sua pergunta, porque existem, sim, princípios práticos que pessoas que tem pânico podem utilizar no dia-a-dia. E, trabalhando com vários médicos ligados ao Hospital Albert Einstein, posso até indicar pesquisas sobre as evidências dos benefícios dessas práticas, se quiser. O segredo é: aprende e estabeleça uma prática diária em que você está cultivando uma consciência maior do aqui e agora – o momento presente. Essa prática é sutil, e conselho que você procura um bom profissional que pode ajudar você. Se quiser, pode entrar no meu site: http://www.atencaoplena.com.br para ver as opções. Posso mandar para você uma gravação de uma meditação que usamos nos nossos cursos para você ver como funciona, Abraço, Stephen

Comment from Tanaya
Time: June 14, 2010, 3:57 am

Dear Bodhipaksa,

I am requesting your advice on how to help my boyfriend.Since the last couple months, he was
diagnosed with clinical depression and was prescribed antidepressants.
When he ran out of medicine, he experienced twitching and a broad
spectrum of emotions. He was crying but did not know why he was
crying. He was always on top of things and very in control of his
life and emotions. Right now, he feels like he can not control what he feels or be on top of things. He says he does not have a reason to be depressed. He just feels sad and down. He told me later that sometimes twitching happens with certain emotions.Before he was diagnosed, it seemed like he showed signs of depression but I was not exactly sure. He wants to feel happy but he says his feelings just seem blocked. At the moment, we have a long distance relationship because I have a summer semester at a college away from home. I was wondering if seeing him would be therapeutic as well. He also opens up to me the most about his feelings. I am studying medicine but my knowledge of depression is not enough to help him. I have told a couple of my friends, and they have been trying to help me help him. He is back on his antidepressants. I heard meditation can help the mind with one who has depression. I would appreciate it if you could please tell me what type of meditation can help depression and the Buddhism views behind it so that I can help him. I would be very grateful.

Thank you,

Tanaya

Comment from Bodhipaksa
Time: June 14, 2010, 9:41 am

Hi Tanaya,

I’m sorry to hear about your boyfriend’s profound depression. I understand that coming off antidepressants can be very rough in its own right — there are withdrawal symptoms on top of the symptoms of the depression. You don’t say why he stopped his meds or whether he did this on medical advice, but he really should be talking with his doctor throughout this time.

As far as meditation goes, mostly it’s been shown to be effective in preventing relapse in people who are not currently depressed. It’s unlikely that meditating would be helpful at the moment. In fact it would probably just give him further opportunities for deepening his depression. He needs to get well, first, and so the best thing you could do is to encourage him to get treatment.

Seeing you might well help him. Depressed people can become very isolated, and that can deepen the depression. But often men are ashamed by being ill and see it as a sign of weakness, and sympathy can be interpreted as confirmation that they’re being seen as weak. So if you do go and see him, I wouldn’t go with the assumption that smothering him in sympathy is going to make things better. It might well do the opposite. Practical help — creating a pleasant environment around him, making sure he eats decent food, helping him get to the doctor — might be the best expression of your concern for him.

I wish both of you all the best.

Comment from Dr solmaz Aliyari
Time: June 24, 2010, 5:11 am

I am a general practitioner from IRAN and read your comments right now these are very useful and I sure every body can use meditation for have a more happy life,unfortunately these metods are not used in persian culture and consulting with psycotherapist makes social problems,so people have not trend to consult without when they have deeply mental problem,and think use of meditation is JUST for mentaly sick people!!!

Comment from Marie
Time: June 29, 2010, 6:51 am

Bodhipaksa your comments to SS back in Feb 2008 resonated with me now as I read it. I have faced bouts of depression and low selfesteem all my life. It more and more manifests itself as irrational angry outbursts towards people I do not feel validated by. Today I was served by a shop assistant who did not respond to my attempts to connect with her with casual over-the-counter conversation. I tried again, commenting that the vouchers I was purchasing were more attractive than another store, still no response. I could feel the annoyance welling up inside as my need to have my attempts at communication were denied. I tried to draw back to myself and take a metta like approach to the situation, but this calm state lasted only the minute or two until I asked if all the vouchers had been loaded with the amounts and checked, when I received her blunt answer with little eye contact which I perceived has blatant rudeness, I snatched the bag from the counter and made to leave with an expression of extreme dissatisfaction on my face.
This happens a lot…I am the common denominator here. I know it’s me, when my expectations to be treated well or even just ‘my way’ are not met, I react the same way each time. I now expect the situation to arise, and therefore bring it to myself I suspect.

What might be the best approach to relieving myself and the neighbourhood stores of this attitude.

I also want to say thank you for this site. It is becoming invaluable to me.

Comment from Bodhipaksa
Time: July 1, 2010, 1:55 pm

Hi Marie,

You sound like me, 20-some years ago!

I’d suggest that when you encounter a frustrating experience, you become aware of the fact that you are suffering. Notice the pain you feel (it may be in your heart or your solar plexus, or somewhere else), and send it lovingkindness by repeating phrases like “May you be well, may you be happy.” The first thing you have to do is to empathize with your pain and to develop self-compassion. Only then can you become more empathetic to the people around you.

At least, this has worked for me.

Comment from andrew
Time: September 1, 2010, 5:33 pm

This forum seems to be a place where practitioners of meditation and/or Buddha-way can get some advice on dealing with emotional issues. I am coming to believe that my main problem is perfectionism. So I continually evaluate every detail about my life and find that most of the time it is lacking in being completely ‘correct’. I am even disgusted with my own flesh-constructed body (its not shaped as I would like) as well as, ultimately, most other flesh-made bodies (I know what is inside them now). Nothing in this world seems clean and nice other than the forest and the clean air after a good rain (though I realize this is an illusion also – there is much decay and death going on there too). But my repulsion does not arise from wisdom, but from ‘wanting to get rid of’ (vibhava tanha). I seem to be very aversive in temperament.

I was going well in meditation, calming the mind somewhat, came to the door of near-absorbtion but could not enter, have seen impermanence in a limilted way in the mind. Now, those states are gone. My meditation is crappy at present. I still sit every day but I am learning not to expect too much. ‘So much for me having any wisdom’, a tormenting thought says.

yep, Im about as depressed as ever, because the one thing that gave me the most happiness – my daily meditation sitting in the morning – is not ‘working’ at present. Perfectionism again! But what should I do? It is a habit of 30 or so years.