Comments on: The Buddha as warrior http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practice/the-buddha-as-warrior Explore Meditation Online Fri, 10 Feb 2012 00:56:44 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: notso http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practice/the-buddha-as-warrior/comment-page-1#comment-83054 notso Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:05:51 +0000 http://www.wildmind.org/?p=3163#comment-83054 Well we agree on the basic principle that end does not justify any means to attain it. If we explore this in connection with being a soldier, are you have justified what you do in your service as being in the defense of others. Do you justify strategic bombing of helpless civilians in a beaten country (Japan) to force them to surrender unconditionally? Many soldiers including MacArthur, Admiral Lehy, Eisenhower, etc said at the time it was unjustified. This is of more than historical importance now because this ties back into questions of the end justifying the means or not. If the end does not justify the means, are you willing to support mass murder of helpless people to make an enemy kneel to you in unconditional surrender? http://www.fpp.co.uk/bookchapters/articles/Hiroshima.html If so, then what kind of moral calculus is at work. http://www.lewrockwell.com/raico/raico22.html You can be a moral soldier, no doubt, but you have to be extra brave and willing to defy orders at times, and this might get you court Marshalled or maybe executed on the spot. I am NOT talking about collateral damage- Thats another subject. I am talking about mass murder on purpose, to cause an enemy army to surrender, not to decrease the output of a factory or kill enemy troops, but to demoralize the enemy by murdering as many of his family as necessary to cause him to surrender. Can you go there in your mind if given the order? By what you said, I believe you will not obey this sort of order. An I correct? Well we agree on the basic principle that end does not justify any means to attain it. If we explore this in connection with being a soldier, are you have justified what you do in your service as being in the defense of others. Do you justify strategic bombing of helpless civilians in a beaten country (Japan) to force them to surrender unconditionally? Many soldiers including MacArthur, Admiral Lehy, Eisenhower, etc said at the time it was unjustified. This is of more than historical importance now because this ties back into questions of the end justifying the means or not. If the end does not justify the means, are you willing to support mass murder of helpless people to make an enemy kneel to you in unconditional surrender?
http://www.fpp.co.uk/bookchapters/articles/Hiroshima.html
If so, then what kind of moral calculus is at work.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/raico/raico22.html

You can be a moral soldier, no doubt, but you have to be extra brave and willing to defy orders at times, and this might get you court Marshalled or maybe executed on the spot.

I am NOT talking about collateral damage- Thats another subject. I am talking about mass murder on purpose, to cause an enemy army to surrender, not to decrease the output of a factory or kill enemy troops, but to demoralize the enemy by murdering as many of his family as necessary to cause him to surrender. Can you go there in your mind if given the order? By what you said, I believe you will not obey this sort of order. An I correct?

]]> By: Joshua Clark http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practice/the-buddha-as-warrior/comment-page-1#comment-83007 Joshua Clark Thu, 01 Apr 2010 00:14:17 +0000 http://www.wildmind.org/?p=3163#comment-83007 Notso, there is no ends justifying any means. I know that I will be judged for my actions, my karma will return to me. That was what I was saying, that I have no justification. I know that in the defense of others I may be sacrificing my own hope of moving forward in my next life. Many of my Christian friends believe that they are protected because others give them orders. I believe that only those who completely understand what they are sacrificing can truly stand to protect those who cannot. Notso, there is no ends justifying any means. I know that I will be judged for my actions, my karma will return to me. That was what I was saying, that I have no justification. I know that in the defense of others I may be sacrificing my own hope of moving forward in my next life. Many of my Christian friends believe that they are protected because others give them orders.
I believe that only those who completely understand what they are sacrificing can truly stand to protect those who cannot.

]]> By: notso http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practice/the-buddha-as-warrior/comment-page-1#comment-83004 notso Wed, 31 Mar 2010 18:53:24 +0000 http://www.wildmind.org/?p=3163#comment-83004 Does the end justify the means or not then. If you are not required to judge the mission, but only your individual actions. then can you load a weapon about to be used to murder innocents, because some authority has adjudicated that this is a good in some ethical calculus? I myself believe that one cannot be a part of a enterprise that believes that evil can be done to accomplish some means judged by some authority to be a good. - Joshua - if you are Jewish, and somebody tels you that the somebody is an existential threat to Israel, is your Karma powered conscience fine with almost any action because the the bloody shirt of a good end is waived in the air? If Karma is rooted in individual perception of doing good, what does this mean if the measure of total good involves judgement of some clique in a chain of command far away, and requires the inclusion of dark back room deals about who is an enemy and why. Does the end justify the means or not then. If you are not required to judge the mission, but only your individual actions. then can you load a weapon about to be used to murder innocents, because some authority has adjudicated that this is a good in some ethical calculus? I myself believe that one cannot be a part of a enterprise that believes that evil can be done to accomplish some means judged by some authority to be a good. – Joshua – if you are Jewish, and somebody tels you that the somebody is an existential threat to Israel, is your Karma powered conscience fine with almost any action because the the bloody shirt of a good end is waived in the air? If Karma is rooted in individual perception of doing good, what does this mean if the measure of total good involves judgement of some clique in a chain of command far away, and requires the inclusion of dark back room deals about who is an enemy and why.

]]> By: Joshua Clark http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practice/the-buddha-as-warrior/comment-page-1#comment-82993 Joshua Clark Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:31:31 +0000 http://www.wildmind.org/?p=3163#comment-82993 I am not enlightened nor do I hold all the knowledge of Buddhism. I have been on the path for some years and I am a Soldier in the US Army. It is my understanding that all my actions are my own and through Karma I will answer for each of them. Knowing this does not change my desire to stop being a Soldier, a warrior. The reason I choose to jeopardize my own life is there are so many people who cannot defend themselves. I do this, take action in defense of others, by my own choice and I will happily accept the Karma that follows. It honestly surprises me more when I talk about this with my Christian battles (friends), their beliefs say over and over to turn the other cheek, not even be angry at people, but in their heart they feel that because an order is given by someone above them it absolves them of the act. In short the other Buddhists who I practice with take the same view that an individuals action are their own. I am not enlightened nor do I hold all the knowledge of Buddhism. I have been on the path for some years and I am a Soldier in the US Army. It is my understanding that all my actions are my own and through Karma I will answer for each of them. Knowing this does not change my desire to stop being a Soldier, a warrior. The reason I choose to jeopardize my own life is there are so many people who cannot defend themselves. I do this, take action in defense of others, by my own choice and I will happily accept the Karma that follows.
It honestly surprises me more when I talk about this with my Christian battles (friends), their beliefs say over and over to turn the other cheek, not even be angry at people, but in their heart they feel that because an order is given by someone above them it absolves them of the act.
In short the other Buddhists who I practice with take the same view that an individuals action are their own.

]]> By: notso http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practice/the-buddha-as-warrior/comment-page-1#comment-82611 notso Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:35:13 +0000 http://www.wildmind.org/?p=3163#comment-82611 If Buddhism is not not pacifist, but non violent, then presumably a moral adjudication is required before one endeavors to join a military effort to slay his fellow man who are deemed an enemy to some group to whom he belongs. There is a period of moral calculation involved in the west. Does Buddhism concern itself with the detail of this moral calculus, or is war just war independent of the cause and methods employed? Of particular interest, what does Buddhism say about the Christian (Catholic anyway) prohibition against adoptions of "the end justifies the means" in doing your moral calculation. Does Buddhism believe that some actions are "mallum in se" - intrinsic evil and not subject to rationalization for any reason. e.g. Murder of innocents.-in war in particular. I know this is all "wordly" and Buddhism is more concerned with the spirit. Notwithstanding this, consider a soldier, acting on behalf of a country that has decided that because an enemy army will not surrender unconditionally ,that it will murder as many innocent civilians as it takes to make them kneel and permit their land to be invaded. This sort of this can be justified by such moral calculus propositions as- 1)they started it. 2) it ultimately saved lives cause it will end the war earlier 3) We were magnanimous to the vanquished after their surrender. 4) They were very bad, and committed numerous atrocities. 5) The would have done it to us. 6) They had it coming ..... Goes on and on. Nevertheless it comes down to the end justifies the means- or not. The situation is world war II, with Japan and the strategic bombing comes to mind. Also the justification of murder of civilians by alQaeda. An the numerous acts of vengeance and cruelty done in the name of God directed manifest destiny in the case of Israel. What is the Buddhist teaching regarding malum in se. - and the end justifying the means. As a Catholic I reject such moral rationalizations and condemn murder of innocents as intrinsically evil, and I am forced to surrender my own life if need to be to avoid being forced into doing it. If Buddhism is not not pacifist, but non violent, then presumably a moral adjudication is required before one endeavors to join a military effort to slay his fellow man who are deemed an enemy to some group to whom he belongs. There is a period of moral calculation involved in the west. Does Buddhism concern itself with the detail of this moral calculus, or is war just war independent of the cause and methods employed? Of particular interest, what does Buddhism say about the Christian (Catholic anyway) prohibition against adoptions of “the end justifies the means” in doing your moral calculation. Does Buddhism believe that some actions are “mallum in se” – intrinsic evil and not subject to rationalization for any reason. e.g. Murder of innocents.-in war in particular. I know this is all “wordly” and Buddhism is more concerned with the spirit. Notwithstanding this, consider a soldier, acting on behalf of a country that has decided that because an enemy army will not surrender unconditionally ,that it will murder as many innocent civilians as it takes to make them kneel and permit their land to be invaded. This sort of this can be justified by such moral calculus propositions as- 1)they started it. 2) it ultimately saved lives cause it will end the war earlier 3) We were magnanimous to the vanquished after their surrender. 4) They were very bad, and committed numerous atrocities. 5) The would have done it to us. 6) They had it coming ….. Goes on and on. Nevertheless it comes down to the end justifies the means- or not.
The situation is world war II, with Japan and the strategic bombing comes to mind. Also the justification of murder of civilians by alQaeda.
An the numerous acts of vengeance and cruelty done in the name of God directed manifest destiny in the case of Israel.
What is the Buddhist teaching regarding malum in se. – and the end justifying the means. As a Catholic I reject such moral rationalizations and condemn murder of innocents as intrinsically evil, and I am forced to surrender my own life if need to be to avoid being forced into doing it.

]]> By: Jim Fowler http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practice/the-buddha-as-warrior/comment-page-1#comment-63886 Jim Fowler Fri, 06 Mar 2009 15:45:24 +0000 http://www.wildmind.org/?p=3163#comment-63886 If you are not guided by wisdom, compassion for all beings, and renunciation of delusion then all the Ninja discipline and focus in the universe cannot change the fact that a warrior is just a thug. This was one of the first things that the Buddha left behind when he cut off his hair and left the palace. If you are not guided by wisdom, compassion for all beings, and renunciation of delusion then all the Ninja discipline and focus in the universe cannot change the fact that a warrior is just a thug. This was one of the first things that the Buddha left behind when he cut off his hair and left the palace.

]]> By: Prem Gedera http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practice/the-buddha-as-warrior/comment-page-1#comment-51173 Prem Gedera Mon, 03 Nov 2008 01:14:54 +0000 http://www.wildmind.org/?p=3163#comment-51173 Wow! Wonderfull peace/piece of writing. You know what, I am a Buddhist by birth (born/raised in Sri Lanka), but I never saw/heard Buddhism from the Buddhist warrior's point of view. You are absolutely right. In general term, warriors fight against out side enemies (looking outward) could be in millions (max), but Buddhists are warriors too, ha ha, who are fighting against countless enemies within (looking inward), making no harm to others. The other thing I like with your writing is the application of Buddhism in the contemporary world, depicting its AKALIKA quality. " I also read some of your articles on visiting Buddhist places in Thailand. I added them to my next visit. On the other hand, I would also recommond a visit to Sri Lanka where ancient cities like Anuradhapura and Polonnaruwa with full of Buddhist history going back to 230 BC (Stone era) with the Sri Mahabodhi, huge Buddha's statues carved into rocks, pagodas (Sthupa), parks for meditation, etc..". Thanks Jeanette Prem Gedera, P.Eng. from BC, Canada Wow! Wonderfull peace/piece of writing. You know what, I am a Buddhist by birth (born/raised in Sri Lanka), but I never saw/heard Buddhism from the Buddhist warrior’s point of view.

You are absolutely right. In general term, warriors fight against out side enemies (looking outward) could be in millions (max), but Buddhists are warriors too, ha ha, who are fighting against countless enemies within (looking inward), making no harm to others.

The other thing I like with your writing is the application of Buddhism in the contemporary world, depicting its AKALIKA quality.

” I also read some of your articles on visiting Buddhist places in Thailand. I added them to my next visit. On the other hand, I would also recommond a visit to Sri Lanka where ancient cities like Anuradhapura and Polonnaruwa with full of Buddhist history going back to 230 BC (Stone era) with the Sri Mahabodhi, huge Buddha’s statues carved into rocks, pagodas (Sthupa), parks for meditation, etc..”.

Thanks Jeanette

Prem Gedera, P.Eng. from BC, Canada

]]> By: Sandy Andrew http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practice/the-buddha-as-warrior/comment-page-1#comment-44926 Sandy Andrew Sat, 04 Oct 2008 01:26:43 +0000 http://www.wildmind.org/?p=3163#comment-44926 What an intriguing story to read. Extremely well written. Love the comments on Karma . . . you are responsible for our Karmic future . . . brilliant! What an intriguing story to read. Extremely well written. Love the comments on Karma . . . you are responsible for our Karmic future . . . brilliant!

]]> By: Rob messel http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practice/the-buddha-as-warrior/comment-page-1#comment-43930 Rob messel Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:30:54 +0000 http://www.wildmind.org/?p=3163#comment-43930 Thank you! As a Soldier currently serving over seas, I have been searching without success for other Buddhists in the service. Not only did this confirm that there is in fact a Buddhist Chaplain "somewhere" there is also a Sangha for people like me! Thank you!
As a Soldier currently serving over seas, I have been searching without success for other Buddhists in the service.
Not only did this confirm that there is in fact a Buddhist Chaplain “somewhere” there is also a Sangha for people like me!

]]> By: Shambhala Sun Space » Buddhism, Warriorship, and the Military http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practice/the-buddha-as-warrior/comment-page-1#comment-41560 Shambhala Sun Space » Buddhism, Warriorship, and the Military Sun, 21 Sep 2008 22:13:16 +0000 http://www.wildmind.org/?p=3163#comment-41560 [...] Wild Mind blog features a piece by Jeanette Shin, a Jodo Shinshu priest who in 2007 became the Dept. of Defense’s first Buddhist chaplain. (She also blogs for the Buddhist Military Sangha.) Jeanette makes the case that the Buddha taught warriorship, although what we do with that idea is up to us. [...] [...] Wild Mind blog features a piece by Jeanette Shin, a Jodo Shinshu priest who in 2007 became the Dept. of Defense’s first Buddhist chaplain. (She also blogs for the Buddhist Military Sangha.) Jeanette makes the case that the Buddha taught warriorship, although what we do with that idea is up to us. [...]

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