Comment from Richard
Time: July 13, 2007, 4:19 am

My partnerhas depression and is being treated with medication. Is there a Buddhist view on anti-depressant medication?

I am confused about what to think about the use of medication? Where does that fit in with a buddhist life?

Any opinions would be helpful

Comment from Bodhipaksa
Time: July 13, 2007, 1:37 pm

Hi Richard,

There’s rarely “a” Buddhist view on anything, but especially with modern issues like psychoactive pharmaceuticals all one can do is look at some of the fundamental ethical guidelines of Buddhism and try, as intelligently as possible, to figure something out.

I presume what you have in mind is the fifth Buddhist precept of abstention from intoxicants. Given that pharmaceutical drugs can affect the mind, there can be a natural fear that taking them may involve some kind of ethical breach. However a deeper understanding of Buddhist ethics must always return to looking at motivation. The fifth precept is intended to encourage us not to take an aware mind and hinder its functioning by taking alcohol or drugs.

Your partner’s situation is very different. He or she is starting with a mind that’s chemically impaired to the point where, presumably, normal mindful awareness is difficult or impossible to sustain, and the intention is to return to something approaching so-called normality by taking anti-depressants.

My own view is that this is fine. Sometimes there are simply chemical imbalances in the brain that arise from misfiring genes, lack of sunlight, hypothyroidism, etc. And in these cases (and others) anti-depressants may be necessary.

Buddhism has long recognized that there are different levels of conditionality that may affect the mind. Depression is not just a matter of “thinking the wrong kind of thoughts” (although that can play a part) but may be chemically or organically induced.

Now there are meditative ways, like Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy for Depression, which can help as well, by helping us to identify and let go of unhelpful ways of thinking, although thse techniques are used generally to prevent relapse after a period of depression is over, and not to “treat” depression.

So once your partner is feeling more stable perhaps he or she could consider this as an extra tool to help remain in a non-depressed state.

Comment from SS
Time: February 11, 2008, 9:08 am

I just stumbled across your site, and am eagerly learning from it. I suffer from depression and am trying to learn how to change my negative thought patterns to cope. I am particularly trying to learn metta bhavana. But I wonder where the line is drawn between metta and not being able to stand up for oneself? Today, my special needs son accidentally pulled another little girl’s hair in kindergarten. She was crying. The teachers dealt with it appropriately, and my son apologized. But the girl’s mother was angry and spoke too roughly to my son. I was there, and could not say anything to her, and she did not acknowledge my presence or my apology. I have been miserable and crying all afternoon, and I have tried metta bhavana directed at myself and at the other mother, but cannot get past the sorrow, shame, and anxiety. Please help?

Comment from Bodhipaksa
Time: February 11, 2008, 2:57 pm

Hello SS,

Thanks for writing. That does sound like a very painful experience and one that could be a trigger for depression.

To deal with the core question you asked, there really isn’t any inherent conflict between metta and standing up for oneself. Having metta for others doesn’t mean that we allow ourselves to be a doormat for them, and in fact ideally our concern for their wellbeing in an extension of our lovingkindness for ourselves.

(OK, I think you might want to pause here and watch for any signs of beating yourself up as you continue reading. When we’re experiencing depression we often make unfair comparisons between ourselves and some idea of how we should be).

Certainly the traditional view is that we can’t actually have metta for others until we’ve developed metta for ourselves. I’m not entirely sure that’s true, actually, but it’s what the tradition says. Let’s just assume that it is true, however. What this would mean then is that when we allow others to trample over us we’re actually confusing something else with metta, or at least there’s something else mixed in with our metta.

I think often that the extra element (or the element that we confuse with metta) is a desire to be liked by the other person. We may have been brought up to believe that people will like us if we don’t impose ourselves on them. Or we may have a mistaken view that the universe is a fair place and that if we’re nice to others then they’ll be nice back to us. So we can have these kinds of things going on and we think we’re being mettaful but actually we’re acting out of fear or from deluded views.

If we’re really being mettaful (and that’s quite a hard thing to do, often) we take ourselves into account as well as the other person. So someone may speak to your son in a way that you consider harsh, and when you see that happening you feel pain because you know that your son is suffering. But that doesn’t mean that you can’t say anything to the other mother.

You said that you apologized, and I’m curious to know what you meant by that. When we say “sorry” we can mean two different things, and they often get confused. On the one hand saying “sorry” can mean admitting that you did something wrong. So your son apologized and presumably that meant that he was admitting that he should have been more careful. The other way we can use the word sorry is to say “i feel sorrow” and that’s the only healthy way in which you could have said you were sorry. You didn’t pull the girl’s hair, and so you can’t say that you did something wrong! But you can feel sorrow that the girl was hurt by your son’s actions.

So I’d ask you to recall, without judgment, what you meant when you said you were sorry. Were you taking responsibility for something you weren’t responsible for, or were you just expressing that the situation was painful? If it was the latter, then it would be useful to bear in mind these two ways of meaning “sorry” and to resolve to cultivate an awareness of when you inappropriately want to apologize.

The other thing that strikes me is the other woman not acknowledging your presence or your communication with her. There could have been all kinds of things going on here, from her being confused by the situation to her wanting to hurt you to her having acknowledged you ibut not realizing she was doing so. But the important thing is that you felt something (hurt? confusion? frustration? anger?) and that you needed something (acknowledgment). Both of those things are healthy parts of being human — it’s what you do next that’s crucial. And I don’t know what you did. Perhaps you froze, waiting for the other woman to say something? Many be you tried to be nice to her?

What you could do in that kind of situation, and what would be very helpful to you, is to express both your feeling and your need. So you could say something like “When I said I was sorry my son pulled your daughter’s hair, I didn’t
hear you say anything. I feel hurt because my need for recognition wasn’t met.”

This is a “clean” expression of both your feeling and your need because there’s no blame involved and you’re not judging the other person. (You might want to look into Non-Violent Communication, or NVC, to find out more about communicating mettafully — there’s lots of info on the web although a course would no doubt be most helpful).

Anyway, by expressing how you feel you’re acting mettafully towards yourself. You’re also acting with self-metta because you’re expressing what need isn’t being met. And you’re treating the other person with metta as well because you’re inviting them to connect with you, heart to heart, with their humanity able to resonate with yours, and because you’re not placing any judgments on them (”I don’t like that you ignored me”).

For now, though, you’re experiencing sorrow, shame, and anxiety, and that’s primarily what you need to deal with. I’d suggest that you treat any of those painful emotions like you would (ideally) treat your son if he were hurt — with love. It’s easy for us to slip into thinking that our hurt is an enemy (after all we’d often rather it was absent!). So instead of treating painful emotions as enemies, treat them as beloved children. All they need is your love and compassion, and to be accepted. And they will pass, given those things and given time.

Comment from SS
Time: February 11, 2008, 10:55 pm

Thank you so much for your reply. To answer your question, what I meant by saying ‘I am sorry’ to the other mother, was a desire to acknowledge that something bad had happened to her child, which my son was responsible for (though accidentally). So, when she spoke roughly to my son and ignored me, I felt that my ‘olive branch’ had been rudely refused; that we were ‘unforgiven’; and have somehow been judged as ‘bad people’ unworthy of redemption from a mistake.
I am still in the grip of crying fits. It is now the next morning (we are in a different country, in case you are wondering about the time discrepancy) and if I see the other mom I will try what you suggested.
I tried very hard last night to practice ‘breathing mindfulness’ and some more ‘metta’, but kept re-living the bad experience and all its associated negativity. So I haven’t moved forward out of it as yet.

Comment from SS
Time: February 12, 2008, 1:46 am

Update:

I had typed an answer to your questions earlier, but do see that posted, so please excuse me if this is a duplicate.

Overall, I wanted to thank you for your thoughtful and detailed answer.

1. To answer your question, yesterday I apologized to the other mother to say I was sorry her daughter had been hurt, and also because my son had hurt her, though accidentally, I should apologize. Thus, I was very hurt in turn when my attempt at an olive branch was rejected.

2. I have just returned from dropping my children off at school (we are in another country in case you are wondering about the time discrepancy), and the sequel to the story is even worse. I heard from the teacher that the teaching staff had approached the other mother yesterday and gently let her know that how she had handled the situation (yelling at my son instead of talking with me) was inappropriate. So when I saw her this morning, I went up to her and tried to validate her feelings while at the same time expressing mine.

So, very gently I said that in her place I too would have been very angry, but how she handled it with my son was not the best way to move forward from an accident. She burst into a tirade railing at me (among other things):
a) it was not an accident in her view (though the teachers did confirm it was)
b) she will do anything and everything to protect her children
c) she has raised three children with total non violence and they never have such accidents or incidents
d) something is “wrong with my son”

I felt like someone has thrown acid in my face. I went straight back to the class teacher; who clarified:
a) it was an accident
b) this mother is known to be over protective of her children.

The other assistant teachers etc. all commiserated with me quietly about how awful the whole episode was, and in their view the other mother was not justified in her words and actions.

But if I was upset yesterday, I am feeling a thousand times worse today. My thoughts and feelings are thrashing around like wounded animals, and any attempt on my part at some form of right thinking is futile.

My husband has tried to tell me:
“this other woman sounds like a piece of work; do not give her this power over yourself”.

But you cannot imagine the agony I am in at this time.

What steps can I take?

Thanks in advance

Comment from Bodhipaksa
Time: February 12, 2008, 10:16 am

Hello again, SS.

Our comments are moderated, which means that they get help up for approval before they appear on the website. That’s not very clear, unfortunately, and I’m sorry for the confusion! Anyway, that means we have some duplication, but that’s no matter since you’ve ended up supplying lots of interesting detail.

What an unpleasant situation in which to find yourself! It does sounds like the other mother’s actions are very unhelpful, and I’m glad that you have the staff on your side.

You asked what to do. In a similar situation I would:

First, as I suggested yesterday, cultivate compassion for my own pain.

Second, I’d visualize myself protected by a sphere of light that provides comfort and love but which prevents any harmful feelings from entering.

Then third, I’d cultivate empathy and compassion for the other mother. She acted inappropriately, but at the same time it’s worth bearing in mind that her motivation was to protect her child. That desire is a noble one, even if the way she tried to go about it was very misguided. I think we can empathize with her need for security, even while disagreeing with her actions.

She’s also very isolated because you have the staff on your side. In her mind she has to use her anger to compensate for the fact that she’s alone in thinking that your son it at fault. Also, she’s suffering. She’s suffering because she can’t protect her child from harm and she’s afraid. And she’s suffering because of her isolation and because her back’s against the wall. These are things I think that as parents we can all empathize with.

So I’d suggest doing things in that order — cultivate compassion towards your own sense of hurt, protect yourself by visualizing a psychic “force field” around you, and then cultivate empathy for the other woman. Empathy and compassion can do a lot to free ourselves from being caught up in our own pain.

Incidentally, we also have a contact form where you can ask questions. I’m happy to discuss this in public as long as you are, but I just wanted to let you know that there is an alternative.

Comment from Cahalil
Time: March 23, 2008, 9:34 pm

This a really interesting article. As a Muslim who occasionally experiences bouts of depression, I’ve found the meditative invocation of the Supreme Divine Name to do wonders. That, and exercise, seems to be the best combination.

There was a study done in Germany a few years which explored the pscyhological healing power of repeating the name of God — Allah. It wouldn’t surprise me if the medical profession more seriously considers the healing power of century old religious meditative practices of the world’s great religions. But it might take some time for the profession to open itself up to non-conventional ways of psychological healing. The only danger is that some of these meditative practices can do more harm than good if they aren’t undertaken under the supervision of an experienced guide.

Comment from Karam Minjur
Time: May 16, 2008, 3:43 am

My lama says that you should allow your subjective pain to awaken compassion for others that also suffer from whatever condition you are suffering with. Then take the medicine!

I no longer need to take antidepressants and I put this down to many years of practice. But Buddhist meditation is not therapy: it’s goal is enlightenment. This is why the Dharma is taught.

That said, calming meditation really helps to clear the mind of that nagging negative voice that informs depression and damages your chances of happiness in this life. I did this by learning to recognise it and then prevent it gaining energy and starting a loop in my mind. My personal experience is that it is like having a constant noise in your mind that spoils everything and makes it very hard to think and feel anything but despair that it will never end. Eventually you move on past it. Or I did, anyway. I also found the first Noble Truth, impermanence, a great help, because it meant that the was a light at the end of the tunnel and my pain would end.

A friend said (probably a quote somewhere), “if you are going through hell keep going until you get to the end”. Good advice I think.

Hope this helps Dharma friends.

Comment from Bodhipaksa
Time: May 16, 2008, 11:56 am

Hi Karam,

I agree of course that ultimately Buddhist meditation is aimed at enlightenment. Enlightenment however is something that not all people have an interest in, and for them meditation may be something that they take up as a therapy to deal with pain so that they can go about their lives in a relatively normal way. That’s a limited perspective, but understandable.

I like the point that your lama makes. Turning our attention outwards by being more aware of the sufferings of others is a potent way for us to reduce our own suffering. When we become obsessed with our own pain it intensifies.

Anyway, I’m glad you’re on the path until the end and not just exploring the first stretch!

Take care,
Bodhipaksa

Comment from Donald Fleck
Time: June 3, 2008, 7:46 pm

I have used meditation for depression, as it can help to focus onto the pain rather than try to avoid it. Recently I have begun teaching Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy for Depression (MBCT), and found that students did pretty well. This is not strictly Buddhist, so I’m not sure if it fits here, but more and more meditators are teaching it through their sanghas or meditation centers, particularly in England. Details are on my web site, DonaldFleck.com, under the Mindfulness tab. I’m interested in questions and comments, of course.

Sincerely, Donald Fleck DCSW

Comment from Karma Minjur
Time: June 4, 2008, 3:07 am

Donald - I don’t need to focus on the pain - it’s always there, constantly. I just don’t give it any energy any more. I recommend the Tibetan practice of lo johng (not sure of spelling) - “sending and taking”, which the Dalai Lama describes in one of the “Essential Teachings” series - need to track the proper reference.

I also wouldn’t embark on this without some instruction from a qualified teacher.

Another thing that came to mind recently - and sending and taking starts with this - is to forgive and love yourself first, before you try to give things to others. If you hate yourself the taint of the hatred will devalue whatever you give to others, and make it hurt more too!

Strongly recommend “The Art of Happiness” too, wonderful gentle book.

Comment from ML
Time: July 1, 2008, 3:30 pm

I found this page while searching for ‘depression and meditation’ in Google. I’ve been dealing with depression of varying severity much of my adult life and have recently tried to start meditating daily in addition to some other approaches, including an antidepressant supplement and therapy. And what a coincidence for me to find that this site is run by Bodhipaksa — the very same gentle guider of the meditations whose CD I’ve been using.

I can say that meditation sometimes helps me with the feelings of depression. Other times, when depressed, it’s difficult for me to meditate at all. On the whole, I would recommend it. It can calm one’s mind from those swirling, sometimes harmful, thoughts, if only to provide some short-lived relief.

Thank you, Bodhipaksa, for the recordings and for this site. I’m grateful for your compassion and willingness to reach out to those who are suffering.

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Time: July 13, 2008, 11:59 pm

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Comment from Charles Pitt
Time: August 25, 2008, 5:39 am

I was researching meditation and depression to see if there was any research to suggest that regular meditation actually had the effect of delaying a persons recover from a period of ‘major depression’ I have been a meditator of some years
and have recently been suspicious about a causal link between the two. Meditation sends me into a very deep and somewhat hypnotic state
which makes engagement in the world a double experience - it calms but leaves me flat and disengaged. This may be a necessary
period of dissengagement so that the body can recover and repair but I wonder if I am assisting my long term recovery
from depression or prolonging it. I would appreciate anyones honest comments or experiences.

Comment from Bodhipaksa
Time: August 25, 2008, 5:56 am

Hi Charles,

All the evidence I’ve seen points in the direction of meditation preventing relapse, but I guess what happens in an individual’s experience depends on what they are actually doing in meditation.

The results you’re describing suggest to me that you need to change whatever it is you do when you’re meditating. Perhaps at present you place too much emphasis on relaxation and not enough on alertness. Or perhaps you’re not paying attention to your emotions or cultivating positive emotion. But the end result of meditation shouldn’t be that you feel flat and disengaged — quite the opposite in fact.

I’d be happy to deal with any follow-up questions you may have.

Comment from Karma Minjur
Time: August 25, 2008, 8:24 am

I agree wholeheartedly with Bodhipaksa’s comment. You can also find yourself sinking or scattering within your meditation and there are specific remedies for this, it sounds like Charles is experiencing sinking.

Despite this, I wouldn’t recommend just digging around on the net for the remedies and trying them. I think you need some instruction from a teacher who can get to know you and understand your situation. If you know the remedies and use them without guidance you can end up with a meditation practice that is bouncing between states and not the steady, deep calm of calm abiding. You will know when you find it. I also wonder if you are withdrawing from your medication, if any? I remember that this did some odd things to my perceptions while I did it. Please withdraw under medical supervision if you are, I did and it was necessary.

Earlier I posted about the technique of “sending and taking” and I think this helped me a lot with my depression because it took me out of myself and my petty concerns. But again, you need to discuss it with a qualified teacher who holds the lineage for it. Good teachers are happy to discuss their qualifications and what they are empowered to teach, don’t be afraid to ask, it’s part of the tradition.

Comment from alana
Time: August 31, 2008, 5:37 pm

hi just wondering if u think that meditation could help me to be happy again. i have been suffering from which i think is depression now for nearly a year and has got to the point where my family are feeling it and my marriage is at risk. it all started when i had my last knee operation acl reconstruction which to my horror as not gone as well as should have. i was quite fit and used the gym and went running regular and work in a gym too! but now i cant even barely ride the bike i feel so fat ugly tired and very unhappy and dont know why this is the only thing i could think of the reason being! ive been to the docs which have suggested i have councilling cos i dont want to take anti-depressants but i would like to think some kind of meditation could help could you please advice me thanks as i do love my family but at the same time i think im hurting them cos im not happy and sometimes just feel like running away from everything and everybody!

Comment from Sunada
Time: September 1, 2008, 1:35 pm

Dear Alana,

I’m so sorry to hear about your knee injury and all the effects it’s had on you. It sounds as though a major part of your life really depended on your being fit and active, and I know this must be a huge loss.

You asked whether meditation could help you be happy again. Yes it absolutely can. As a recovering depressive myself, I strongly feel that meditation is among the few things we can do that can create lasting change. However, it’s not like taking a pill where you’ll see instant results. What meditation does is create a mental framework for us gradually to become more self-aware and train us to redirect those habitual thought patterns that get us stuck in unhappy places. It does take time and effort, but I can personally say that it is well worth it.

It sounds as though counseling could be helpful, too, especially since it sounds as though your depression is more the result of your life situation, and not necessarily a brain chemical imbalance. I’m guessing that a combination of counseling and meditation might work well for you, and help you through this difficult period.

I wish you the best, and that you find your way back to happiness. It really is possible! I am living proof.

Best wishes,
Sunada
http://www.mindfulpurpose.com

Comment from Jennifer
Time: October 6, 2008, 8:47 am

I have suffered from depression most of my life and in the mid-90s I finally tried medications that were a big help. I am still taking meds, but find that 9 years into my marriage, I am severely depressed and hopeless. Everything seems to have gone downhill since I had twins 5 years ago (I also have a single child who is 7). My husband and I dated for 5 years and saw a therapist together even before we married, but the same issues of his emotional distance and his tendency to lash out when I express my feelings (since he always takes them a attacks) continue to plague our relationship. I am feeling like I want out. I have read Ticht Nat Hahn on “Anger” and am currently reading “The Power of Now” — I am wondering how I can stop “ruminating” and if I can use meditation to achieve some kind of forgiveness of myself and my spouse. I have so much anger and sorrow… How do I know I am meditating in a healthy way by being in the now and not doing unhealthy suppression of my true feelings? Sometimes following Tolle’s suggestion to observe my feelings instead of “being” them seems like a fancy way of repressing.