One of the most common misconceptions about meditation is that it’s about making your mind go blank. I don’t know where this “meme” originated (a “meme” is a virus-like idea which inhabits or even “infects” our minds) but it’s pervasive and long-lasting. I think it may take at least another generation or two of spiritual practice before that notion goes to the scrapheap of ideas that it deserves to rest in.
This mistaken idea is even found in some meditation sites that rank highly in Google, which is a little worrying.
Certainly, we want in meditation to reduce the amount of thinking that goes on. Most of us are plagued with thoughts that arise seemingly without cause. It’s rare to experience more than a few moments without some thought arising. And although this is “normal” (i.e. very common) it’s not healthy. Many of the thoughts that arise in the mind are supportive of emotions of anxiety, ill will, neurotic craving, and self-doubt. So that’s why we want to reduce the amount of thinking we do — to have a rest from this near-relentless onslaught of thoughts.
We can even experience times in meditation when no thoughts arise at all.
Hey, you may be thinking, hasn’t he just contradicted himself? Well, no. Let me explain.
If you think that not thinking is the same as having a blank mind, then you’re making the error of equating “the mind” with “thinking” and specifically with verbal thinking, or inner self-talk. There’s much more to the mind than inner self-talk! There are perceptions of physical sensations, and there are perceptions of feelings and emotions, and of internally-generated images.
When meditation brings us to the point where self-talk ceases, the mind is anything but blank. Instead it’s full — full of an awareness of those sensations, feelings, emotions, and images. I like to think of this as one of the meanings of mindfulness – “mind-full-ness,” or the mind being so full that there’s no need for, and no room for, inner self-talk.
Our inner self-talk, as well as generating or reinforcing unhelpful emotions, also has the effect of keeping us at a relatively superficial level of our experience. We get so wrapped up in what we’re saying to ourselves inside our heads that we often don’t really notice what’s going on in the heart, the body, or even in the outside world.
As we start to pay more attention to the breath, and therefore the body, we find that our thinking naturally starts to quiet down. And this creates an even greater opportunity to notice the body, feelings and emotions, etc.
And we find that interesting things start to happen. Because we’re no longer reinforcing unhelpful emotions, we feel happier. And we’re free to notice that happiness more because we’re less obsessed with our thinking. So we really notice how happy we are becoming.
Interesting things start to happen in the body as well. Because we’re no longer reinforcing unhelpful emotions, the body starts to relax. As it relaxes it feels more enjoyable to have a body and energy starts to be released. And that energy is very pleasurable, and because we’re less obsessed with thinking we’re free to really notice those sensations as well.
And sometimes vivid and symbolic imagery wells up into the mind, and of course we’re free to really pay attention to that. We don’t necessarily think about the imagery, but we allow it to sit within us like a wise presence.
So all this is going on in the mind, and the mind is therefore anything but “blank.” Normal experience seems “blank” in comparison to the fullness of experience that we can develop in meditation. I’m reminded of times I’ve been reading outdoors and have emerged from the lines of text on the page to realize that there’s a world full or life and beauty around me that seems incomparably richer and more beautiful than the book. And I say this as someone who has always loved reading!
Sometimes we decide it is appropriate to think in meditation. And we call this reflection. This kind of thinking is more focused and powerful than normal thought. We don’t have a constant stream of thoughts running through the mind, but instead we take a thought and allow it to be there, not going anywhere but simply sitting in the mind, surrounded by awareness, and we notice what responses it calls forth. It’s like the difference between watching MTV, with its constant jumping from one image to another, and standing in an art museum, spending time in front of one picture and drinking it in. (Although I’ve noticed that people generally spend most of their time reading the labels of the pictures than they spend actually looking at the pictures themselves — a sign, I assume, that they are addicted to inner self-talk and uncomfortable with actual experience.
So, no, it’s not contradictory to say that meditation isn’t about making your mind go blank, but that it can help us to reduce, or even eliminate, inner self-talk for periods of time. Meditation is about developing mindfulness, or “mind-full-ness.”
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Oops, forgot the link to Steve's article:
https://realpeoplepress.com/blog/silencing-internal-voices
A bit more research, and it looks like Depersonalization Disorder:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization_disorder
"The symptoms include a sense of automation, going through the motions of life but not experiencing it, feeling as though one is in a movie, feeling as though one is in a dream, feeling a disconnection from one's body; out-of-body experience, a detachment from one's body, environment and difficulty relating oneself to reality.
Occasional moments of mild depersonalization are normal;[1] strong, severe persistent or recurrent feelings are not. A diagnosis of a disorder is made when the dissociation is persistent and interferes with the social and occupational functions necessary to everyday living. Most cases of depersonalization disorder are triggered by abuse, trauma, and drug use, although a variety of genetic and environmental factors are implicated.
...Fears of going crazy, brain damage, and losing control are common complaints. Individuals report occupational impairments as they feel they are working below their ability, and interpersonal troubles since they have an emotional disconnection from those they care about."
Thanks, Duff. Yes, that's similar to what I meant by alienation. I'm more familiar with people having emotions and not being able to feel them than with people having thoughts and being unable to experience them -- in fact I'm not familiar with the latter at all. Certainly having thoughts but there being a sense of unreality, and feeling detached from those thoughts, is a form of dissociation or alienation, but these two people seem to be saying they experience no thought. "Calm" sounds depressed, but it's hard to know which came first -- the depression or the experience of a lack of thought. My mother's doctor kept telling her she was depressed, which was true, but what he was missing was that her depression was being caused by a cancer in one of her endocrine glands -- plus the constant insistence on the part of her doctor that there was nothing wrong with her and that all her symptoms were imagined. I'm not saying there's an exactly parallel, but I think we need to be open to the possibility that people can experience strange things, and not being able to understand what they're going through can cause depression. The depression may not be a cause but an added symptom.
Anyway, for "Calm" and "Fuzzwuzz," I do hope you keep exploring what's going on. It would be worth pursuing counselling or therapy in addition to medical doctors, who can be pretty clueless when it comes to anything that's not directly physical.
And "Calm," I do still think meditation would be useful for you, but it would be best if it were done under the close supervision of an experienced teacher. Meditation can exacerbate some mental health problems -- and in the event that there's something of that nature going on it's best to tread carefully. And meditation is best used as a complement to therapy or medication, not as a replacement.
Um. Not for nothing here, but isn't this all getting a little more complicated than it needs to be?
"Calm" and "Fuzzwuzz," I want to apologize for discussing you back and forth like this! But at the same time, I think what you're experiencing is - despite Duff's and Bodhipaksa's concerns - extremely normal and even common.
The first glimpses of Silence, Stillness, and the Emptiness that's there when we stop paying attention to the chatter of thought is often very scary to the mind.
So it's very natural for there to be a lot of reaction, contraction, and fear-stuff that comes up.
For instance, thoughts/fears about not having a conscience any more, as "Calm" reports, are often reported. I've heard many others talk about things like this, and although I've not experienced that particular fear myself, I've run into plenty others of my own.
I've also had times that my mind interpreted as half-asleep, disconnected, potentially non-functional, but when I questioned the reality of that, I could see that in fact I was functioning in some ways better than "normal" (whatever that is).
I'm not saying that dissociation doesn't happen; obviously it does. I'm just saying that my experience points to some simpler explanations than that.
Sit with your experience and observe it, and see what's really there. Of course if you're still concerned, by all means see someone who understands meditation and psychology and get it checked into. But why not start with the simplest explanation (and far more common situation) first?
Hey, I looked up dissociation and depersonalisation disorders and such, and didn't find many symptoms that were relevant to me, and still not too sure what these sorts of disorders are. However, this is familiar to me: 'sense of automation'- reacting automatically and feeling as though I'm daydreaming (minus the thoughts).
Bodhipaksa, you say that 'Meditation can exacerbate some mental health problems — and in the event that there’s something of that nature going on it’s best to tread carefully.' That's a new piece of information for me, and it makes sense too, since I had mental health problems through high school, of the anxiety/depression sort, and they became worse after finishing school. (I did an improper form of meditation during second last year of school). After experiencing worsened mental health problems, I'm experiencing, additionally, memory issues. I have trouble remembering details/complexity, making it hard to function properly because people may take it for granted, but almost everything we do rely on our knowledge of complex material... eg. relationships, employment, study... so I'm struggling right now, and not sure if the memory issues have anything to do with having a blank mind, or to do with mental health issues/disorders, or to do with meditation?
But yeah, I'll continue trying to find out about what I'm experiencing :/
Thanks everyone for your replies and help I really appreciate it. I don't know what to do to be honest. I have booked an appointment with the doctor. Even if the doctor can't do anything I feel I need to talk to some thearapist about this mentally. This is so unreal to me, I know meditation helps to quiet the mind, but let me put it this way I often go through out the whole day without thinking ANYTHING at all it's like my mind is litterally blank, switched off. It's like I am dead inside, I care but I am indifferent both at the sametime. I appear to be very stoic most of the time I feel no strong emotion about things, my attraction towards the opposite sex has gone right down. This is very depressing suicide seems like a good alternative because I feel so dead inside. I fear I have become one of those zen monks who are pure zombies and dead from the world and their feelings. Perhaps I should also note that I am prone to depression, anxiety, worries and obsessions. I also have Dyspraxia which is a mental disorder in itself. Maybe taking up meditation wasn't a good idea for me and worry doing it further will make things worse. I don't think it's possible to get worse though because I feel pretty dead anyway. Like Fuzzwuzz said my memory seems to of been affected too, my short term memory isn't great anyway, but even in the longterm I have a real difficulty remembering things like my last birthday what I did a few weeks ago things like that. I don't see the point in much anymore. I am not sure whether to talk to my parents about this I think I should because I may of caused some sort of brain damage and that they need to know I may not be the same person I was before. I just feel so numb.
Hi Grace,
I really am surprised to hear you say that these experiences are "normal and even common." I'm not doubting your word, but what you say just doesn't fit with my own experience. Over the last 30 years I've talked to hundreds or even thousands of people about their meditation practice. These have been people who have experience of many different traditions. And until now I've never come across anyone who claims they have permanently lost their thoughts -- certainly not with the other symptoms described, such as depression. It's not uncommon for thinking to cease for short periods of time, however.
I'm also not clear if you're talking about the same phenomenon that Fuzzwuss and Calm are describing, because when you say "when we stop paying attention to the chatter of thought" that implies that the thought is still there and we're ignoring it. That's not what our two friends have reported, although it may be that you didn't quite express what you meant.
So I'm puzzled on those two counts.
I'd question also whether Duff and I are making this "more complicated than it needs to be." Duff has suggested that there might be a dissociative state at work here. That may be a possibility. It may also be possible (as I suggested earlier, and as you seem to be suggesting) that a spiritual state has started emerging and has gotten "stuck" because of fear. But it may also be possible, for all I know, that a brain tumor could cause the symptoms described. Certainly, Jill Bolte Taylor described how a stroke removed her ability to think, and other pathologies may be able to make this happen too. It would be tragic to suggest that someone just keep meditating when there may be some underlying organic or psychological problem. Life, the mind, and the brain are all complex things, and I think it's wise to recognize that.
I do want to be clear that I'm not suggesting being negligent or blase about whatever may be happening.
But what I initially heard Fuzzwuzz and Calm reporting is in fact a fair amount of thought, mostly concerning questions about non-thought. :) Both of them have subsequently expanded on their initial posts, and I agree with both of them and with you that further exploration of what's happening for them would be a Very Good Thing. As you say, there are many possibilities, and being cautious is always appropriate.
In saying "stop paying attention," you're correct, I mis-spoke (mis-wrote). Sorry - didn't mean to be confusing.
I am just really confused to be honest I am sure you have all figured this one out I don't know where to turn. I hope it's alright If I express my feelings and concerns here. The best I can explain my situtation is. Imagine someone who is completely free from thought all day everyday, nothing they see, hear or generally experience triggers off their mind or "inner voice", they're mind doesn't have any real curiousity or reaction to anything. This is what I feel and what my state is like it's not that I can't litterally think of any thought at all that's not the issue. The issue is that rational part of my mind that would speak out automatically if I was in danger, needed to do something or speak up in interest about something in general no longer does. I don't know if what I am experience is temporay, normal or something that needs medical attention. I am no doctor or expert but I know myself better than anyone else and what I am feeling doesn't feel normal and I do think I may have some sort of brain damage even though it might not be fatal. The truth is it's normal to think and to be curious about others, the world and everything around us. It's one thing to quiet your thougths and it's another thing to shut them down completely. It honestly feels like I am half brain dead. I remember waking up and realizing I wasn't thinking about anything but as time went on I knew this was a real part of me and it was almost like I couldn't face the reality of what had happened. It's so bizzare it's like if someone asks me a question no automatic response comes up in my mind I just somehow know the answer.
Actually, I'd say that it's pretty clear from the discussion that we don't have it all figured out at all! :)
The thing is, it's your experience that you need to deal with, and it sounds right now like it's not very comfortable for you, to say the least. For anyone to have a definitive recommendation based on the short exchange here would be a bit far-out, you know what I mean?
I do wonder how long this has been going on? I read back and I don't see where you've said.
You've made an appointment with your doctor - that's a great move.
My opinion - and it's only an opinion (based on my experience, what I've heard others describe, and my teacher's experience), and it also clearly differs from Bodhipaksa's, so take it for whatever that makes it worth to you - anyway, my opinion is that what you're experiencing is an experience that will pass.
I do hear what you're saying about how strange it feels to you, but I also feel a sense of recognition in what you describe - I think I've been someplace similar to where you are. Weird, yes. But maybe something to be curious about instead of worried about?
At the same time, since you are concerned, then I would absolutely get yourself checked out. I really, really don't think that it's possible to cause brain damage by meditation. However, as Bodhipaksa points out, you may have something else going on that is causing what you're experiencing.
I hope this is helpful - and Bodhipaksa, I hope you don't mind my jumping in here on this comment stream!
Good luck, and I hope you'll let us know how it goes.
About Grace's comment: 'But what I initially heard Fuzzwuzz and Calm reporting is in fact a fair amount of thought, mostly concerning questions about non-thought. :)'
I'm not sure how similar my situation is from Calm's, but what I mean when I say there's no thoughts, is that there's no VERBAL thought... say you're reading something. For most people, you read the words, and then inside, you verbally pronounce the words in your head, and lastly, you understand what you have just read. For me, my reading something is directly understood, there's no voicing of the words inside my head. Same with all my ideas. Everything that I want to say or everything I hear, see, read, are understandings, but there's no verbal description of them inside my head. That's what I mean by no thoughts. So what Grace describes as 'a fair amount of thought', I think might be better described as 'a fair amount of ideas/understandings'.
For me, things in life do not trigger verbal thoughts, but they trigger understandings and ideas. However, not automatic ones, only when I choose for it to trigger something. A little unlike Calm, I do feel curious and react to things in life. I agree with Calm on this: 'It’s so bizzare it’s like if someone asks me a question no automatic response comes up in my mind I just somehow know the answer.'
I've had this state for about 3 years, so I'm very used to it, I don't remember clearly what it was like to have thoughts, but from what I remember, I think, uncontrollably, thoughts used to enter my head no matter what I saw, did, said, etc.
I'm not worried about the state, just think it's odd, especially with the feeling of not being too aware of my surroundings and feeling as though I'm constantly daydreaming.